Look, when people express their views on things, they would do well to maintain a solid awareness of what they do and do not know. Obviously, our understanding of Israel is shaped by the fact that we do NOT live there, thus our experiences with it are different from a homegrown Israeli's. We're still knowledgeable on the issue in our own way. But the inverse of this is that you have people now like Dave Smith who have made entire careers out of bashing Israel without even having visited once, and when they're pressed on that, they just state smugly "well I didn't know I had to visit to comment on its affairs!" That is a problem.
Agreed. The thing is that I know a great deal that Israelis - and Jews who grew up in large diaspora communities- don't know because of my unique range of experiences. I should definitely be part of the conversation. That said many commentators know jack s@#t about the subject and should stop opining.
The problem is that people who have no skin in the game are much more likely to espouse luxury beliefs. e.g., bleeding heart progressives claim the moral high ground by sounding empathetic, while paying no price if their disastrous ideas are wrong.
Fair enough Hutch. But my point would be is just judge each person and their ideas on their merits. Don't simply shut down debate by calling Jews abroad "leftists" (even in cases where they clearly don't fit in that category), but listen to their perspectives and ignore them or accept them on their merits. The Likud is more than happy to hear from billionaire Americans "who don't live there" when they support them financially.
I'm not sure why you got your nickers in a twist here. Why would Israelis like you commenting on their choices? I certainly don't like when someone comments on the choices Americans make and we are not exactly in a fight for our lives, well maybe we are but in a different way. But who we vote for and how it unfolds is our business, and its not up to the rest of the world what we choose here. Or to put it more succinctly we dont care what the rest of the world thinks. Well most of us dont care because we dont think about the rest of the world (ok most Americans cant find the other continents on a map either but thats a different issue because most Americans probably dont know what a continent is.)
Do you like it when people who have no skin in the game comment on how the crap Starmer government in the UK is made up of greedy, condescending, dumbasses, or how they have 2 tier justice, that its ok to call for genocide against Jews but you go to prison for 18 months if you hurt an Islamists feelings, and how they are such scum that Labour thinks its ok to rape little girls as long as they are white or underprivileged? (Just asking)
Now as a Jew I have always maintained that if we do not have children or serve ourselves in the IDF we don't get to discuss how Israel will wage war. I know that that bothers many in the diaspora because there are stupid antisemitic people who say hurty words when you go into Starbucks to by your carmel machiatto oat milk decaf frappachino, and you think this entitles you to decide how Israel should manage her security and fight a war (not saying that is you Daniel).
But when it comes to social activities, religion and how the society that is something we should have a say in. Not simply because we are Jewish and how our judaism is perceived and respected, but the entire idea is that Israel is the nation state for the entire Jewish people. (I remember when the rabbinate in Israel decided that the orthodox rabbi here in the US who converted Ivanka Trump- one of the most respected rabbis in the US btw- wasn't sufficiently frum so all his conversions were null- yeah that was a fun kerfuffle for a while). Civil rights, justice reform, judaism, etc, is something that will effect us as Jews in the long run whether Israelis like it or not. So yeah, for this I think we do get a say.
Hi EKB, thanks for your contribution. The key thing is consistency: if an Israeli is saying that foreign Jews can't comment on Israel because they don't live there, then they as Israelis can't makes comments of the sort "London is like the Warsaw Ghetto" without living here. It's a two way street.
But ultimately I think we are broadly in agreement. I am not commenting on how Israel is conducting the war here, but more on the issues which you rightly say affect us as Jews around the world. For example, Israeli's status as a democracy including the judicial reform controversy hugely affects us as Jews because a) if we have to flee to Israel we want it to be a democracy b) it is what gives Israel the moral edge over its barbaric neighbours. Also as believers in liberal democracy we want liberal democracy in general to be strong around the world and we criticise perceived backsliding in every country from Germany to France as well as Israel.
It should also be said that the majority of Israelis - including a very significant proportion of the right wing - now see Netanyahu as unfit to be PM i(f polls are to be believed) for the many reasons of which you are aware. Like us they are full sqaure behind Israel's right to self-defence but the conduct of Netanyahu is nothing to do with the Gaza issue. As an English speaking Jew, who has demonstrated his full-hearted commitment to Israel, I am merely showing myself to be aligned with Israel's majority: but my gift for English communication helps them to join hands with the diaspora in solidarity.
I don't think you need a paid subscription to hear the podcast. Just press listen at the top of the post. The paid subscription is for hitting the lyrics.
Thanks for the contribution Noah and your support. I should say that my overriding issue with Netanyahu is his "judicial reform" demagoguery. I will leave discussion of the Gaza war - a separate issue - for debate elsewhere. Did you like the podcast?
It was a truly splendid podcast, Daniel! You make an excellent point. It is ludicrous to suggest that just because someone isn’t from a country they don’t get to comment on its affairs. Obviously, no one lives everywhere. So by that logic I guess no one can comment on anything. We live in a globalized world where we are more connected than ever before, we need to leave behind nationalism as a relic of the past! People need to get out more and stop living like hermits in their own little bubbles.
Ha, Daniel, that's brilliant!
Thanks Ashok!
Yep...
Thanks Francisco!
Look, when people express their views on things, they would do well to maintain a solid awareness of what they do and do not know. Obviously, our understanding of Israel is shaped by the fact that we do NOT live there, thus our experiences with it are different from a homegrown Israeli's. We're still knowledgeable on the issue in our own way. But the inverse of this is that you have people now like Dave Smith who have made entire careers out of bashing Israel without even having visited once, and when they're pressed on that, they just state smugly "well I didn't know I had to visit to comment on its affairs!" That is a problem.
Agreed. The thing is that I know a great deal that Israelis - and Jews who grew up in large diaspora communities- don't know because of my unique range of experiences. I should definitely be part of the conversation. That said many commentators know jack s@#t about the subject and should stop opining.
The problem is that people who have no skin in the game are much more likely to espouse luxury beliefs. e.g., bleeding heart progressives claim the moral high ground by sounding empathetic, while paying no price if their disastrous ideas are wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxury_belief
Fair enough Hutch. But my point would be is just judge each person and their ideas on their merits. Don't simply shut down debate by calling Jews abroad "leftists" (even in cases where they clearly don't fit in that category), but listen to their perspectives and ignore them or accept them on their merits. The Likud is more than happy to hear from billionaire Americans "who don't live there" when they support them financially.
Amazing!
Thanks happy days and thanks for sharing!
I'm not sure why you got your nickers in a twist here. Why would Israelis like you commenting on their choices? I certainly don't like when someone comments on the choices Americans make and we are not exactly in a fight for our lives, well maybe we are but in a different way. But who we vote for and how it unfolds is our business, and its not up to the rest of the world what we choose here. Or to put it more succinctly we dont care what the rest of the world thinks. Well most of us dont care because we dont think about the rest of the world (ok most Americans cant find the other continents on a map either but thats a different issue because most Americans probably dont know what a continent is.)
Do you like it when people who have no skin in the game comment on how the crap Starmer government in the UK is made up of greedy, condescending, dumbasses, or how they have 2 tier justice, that its ok to call for genocide against Jews but you go to prison for 18 months if you hurt an Islamists feelings, and how they are such scum that Labour thinks its ok to rape little girls as long as they are white or underprivileged? (Just asking)
Now as a Jew I have always maintained that if we do not have children or serve ourselves in the IDF we don't get to discuss how Israel will wage war. I know that that bothers many in the diaspora because there are stupid antisemitic people who say hurty words when you go into Starbucks to by your carmel machiatto oat milk decaf frappachino, and you think this entitles you to decide how Israel should manage her security and fight a war (not saying that is you Daniel).
But when it comes to social activities, religion and how the society that is something we should have a say in. Not simply because we are Jewish and how our judaism is perceived and respected, but the entire idea is that Israel is the nation state for the entire Jewish people. (I remember when the rabbinate in Israel decided that the orthodox rabbi here in the US who converted Ivanka Trump- one of the most respected rabbis in the US btw- wasn't sufficiently frum so all his conversions were null- yeah that was a fun kerfuffle for a while). Civil rights, justice reform, judaism, etc, is something that will effect us as Jews in the long run whether Israelis like it or not. So yeah, for this I think we do get a say.
Hi EKB, thanks for your contribution. The key thing is consistency: if an Israeli is saying that foreign Jews can't comment on Israel because they don't live there, then they as Israelis can't makes comments of the sort "London is like the Warsaw Ghetto" without living here. It's a two way street.
But ultimately I think we are broadly in agreement. I am not commenting on how Israel is conducting the war here, but more on the issues which you rightly say affect us as Jews around the world. For example, Israeli's status as a democracy including the judicial reform controversy hugely affects us as Jews because a) if we have to flee to Israel we want it to be a democracy b) it is what gives Israel the moral edge over its barbaric neighbours. Also as believers in liberal democracy we want liberal democracy in general to be strong around the world and we criticise perceived backsliding in every country from Germany to France as well as Israel.
It should also be said that the majority of Israelis - including a very significant proportion of the right wing - now see Netanyahu as unfit to be PM i(f polls are to be believed) for the many reasons of which you are aware. Like us they are full sqaure behind Israel's right to self-defence but the conduct of Netanyahu is nothing to do with the Gaza issue. As an English speaking Jew, who has demonstrated his full-hearted commitment to Israel, I am merely showing myself to be aligned with Israel's majority: but my gift for English communication helps them to join hands with the diaspora in solidarity.
I agree with everything you said here.
PS did you enjoy the podcast?
I didn't get to hear it. I don't have a paid subscription.
I don't think you need a paid subscription to hear the podcast. Just press listen at the top of the post. The paid subscription is for hitting the lyrics.
I liked it and it is so true. BTW you don't sound like I expected.
Thanks!! Keep following the podcast.
Thanks for the contribution Noah and your support. I should say that my overriding issue with Netanyahu is his "judicial reform" demagoguery. I will leave discussion of the Gaza war - a separate issue - for debate elsewhere. Did you like the podcast?
It was a truly splendid podcast, Daniel! You make an excellent point. It is ludicrous to suggest that just because someone isn’t from a country they don’t get to comment on its affairs. Obviously, no one lives everywhere. So by that logic I guess no one can comment on anything. We live in a globalized world where we are more connected than ever before, we need to leave behind nationalism as a relic of the past! People need to get out more and stop living like hermits in their own little bubbles.
Absolutely. The logic is that only people who have never travelled can comment.